Which is better?
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4 years 1 month ago #2811
by Wescli Wardest
Which is better? was created by Wescli Wardest
Which is better, charity or government assistance programs...
Are social welfare programs fair to the public and/or the person they are supposed to aide?
When do “safety nets” meant to aide people in a time of need become entitlements?
I know this is not the Christmas season. But with modern politics in America having what I consider an alarming amount of Socialist policies being supported by differing politicians, should we not take a minute to look at how government intervention in the average person’s life affects them?
And the ultimate question I have, is it morally good to take from one to give to another? Not should people be charitable but does anyone, even a government have the right to take what is yours to do with as they see fit?
Scrooge and the Welfare State
Gary Wolfram
Issue CCLXXI - December 25, 2010
Early in Charles Dickens's famous 1843 novel, A Christmas Carol in Prose, two men enter Scrooge's office seeking Christmas donations. The ensuing intercourse is worth repeating this Christmas season.
"At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessities; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."
"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.
"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"
"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they are not."
"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigor, then?" said Scrooge.
"Both very busy, sir."
"Oh, I was afraid from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I am very glad to hear it."
When the gentleman presses Scrooge to contribute to a fund to buy the poor some food and shelter, Scrooge says he will contribute nothing.
"I help to support the establishments I have mentioned—they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there," Scrooge reasons.
Now we usually interpret this discussion as showing how mean and selfish Scrooge is, but there is another way to look at it, given the advance of the welfare state since the time of Dickens.
What Scrooge is saying here is that he pays taxes to support the government programs designed to house the poor, for that is what the prisons, work houses, Treadmill, and Poor Laws were at the time. In effect he is saying, "Isn't the government supposed to take care of the poor? Aren't I paying my taxes to take care of this problem?"
This is one of the overlooked ill-effects of a government that goes beyond its role to protect life, liberty, and property. Our federal government officials tell us that we can't possibly be generous enough to house the poor, or to give them medical care and that it is not our responsibility to take care of the indigent. There are housing programs, food stamps, and now a massive government health insurance program that will ensure we have to do nothing other than give up half of our income to the federal government, and our leaders will do the rest. Social Security and Medicare ensure that we do not even have to provide for our parents.
In effect, we are told to become modern day Scrooges.
In the same year that Dickens published A Christmas Carol, Herbert Spencer published an essay, "The Proper Sphere of Government." Spencer wrote that one of the most under-looked and most harmful effects of the Poor Laws of Britain - their welfare system - was that the wealthy would lose their sense of charity and feeling towards the less fortunate.
He put in an essay the very point that Scrooge was making in Dickens's novel. Spencer wrote that wealthier classes would feel the annoyance towards the forced contributions to the poor that is evident in Scrooge's response to the gentlemen that were asking him to help out the poor. One hundred and sixty-seven years on from Dickens and Spencer we must ask ourselves: Have we arrived at the point where we see those less fortunate than we as an annoyance, something to be taken care of by our government with the taxes taken out of our paychecks so we don't have to be bothered to even think about them?
When the federal government takes your tax dollars to pay for someone else's doctor's visit, you are not being charitable. You had no choice in the matter.
The federal bureaucrat who sent the doctor the check is not being charitable, for he or she is spending your money, not theirs.
The doctor is not being charitable, for he is being paid for their service.
On the other hand, St. Peter's Free Clinic in Hillsdale is an example of true charity. Volunteers provide the medical care and other services, local residents and churches provide donations to pay for the medicine and supplies, and those who receive the service recognize the love and respect that they are being given.
America remains the most charitable of all nations. Despite the recession, American charitable giving exceeded $300 billion in 2009. Probably every reader of this column has given to some charity this year. But this Christmas we should make an effort to examine how we can make the transition from a government that makes us into Scrooges to a government that gives us the opportunity to be truly philanthropic.
This article originally appeared in The Michigan View (themichiganview.com) on December 24, 2010.
rationalargumentator.com/issue271/scroogewelfare.html
I have no fear that the people here will become Scrooge. I think that more to the point is the illustration of how government programs meant to do something, helping the distressed in this case, usually fall short and it still remains up to the individual to contribute to “pick up the slack.” If you were not taxed as much for these (my interpretation of them) bloated temples of false piety, virtue signaling and bureaucratic debacles of wood-be charity that ultimately devolve into social entitlements, would you not spend more or give more to local charities or other charities then you currently do?
I'm sure that we (society as a whole) will need government implemented "safety nets" for when people fall on hard times. I am not advocating the abolishment of those at all.
And I'll stop here to give others a chance to comment.
Are social welfare programs fair to the public and/or the person they are supposed to aide?
When do “safety nets” meant to aide people in a time of need become entitlements?
I know this is not the Christmas season. But with modern politics in America having what I consider an alarming amount of Socialist policies being supported by differing politicians, should we not take a minute to look at how government intervention in the average person’s life affects them?
And the ultimate question I have, is it morally good to take from one to give to another? Not should people be charitable but does anyone, even a government have the right to take what is yours to do with as they see fit?
Scrooge and the Welfare State
Scrooge and the Welfare State
Gary Wolfram
Issue CCLXXI - December 25, 2010
Early in Charles Dickens's famous 1843 novel, A Christmas Carol in Prose, two men enter Scrooge's office seeking Christmas donations. The ensuing intercourse is worth repeating this Christmas season.
"At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessities; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."
"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.
"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"
"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they are not."
"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigor, then?" said Scrooge.
"Both very busy, sir."
"Oh, I was afraid from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I am very glad to hear it."
When the gentleman presses Scrooge to contribute to a fund to buy the poor some food and shelter, Scrooge says he will contribute nothing.
"I help to support the establishments I have mentioned—they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there," Scrooge reasons.
Now we usually interpret this discussion as showing how mean and selfish Scrooge is, but there is another way to look at it, given the advance of the welfare state since the time of Dickens.
What Scrooge is saying here is that he pays taxes to support the government programs designed to house the poor, for that is what the prisons, work houses, Treadmill, and Poor Laws were at the time. In effect he is saying, "Isn't the government supposed to take care of the poor? Aren't I paying my taxes to take care of this problem?"
This is one of the overlooked ill-effects of a government that goes beyond its role to protect life, liberty, and property. Our federal government officials tell us that we can't possibly be generous enough to house the poor, or to give them medical care and that it is not our responsibility to take care of the indigent. There are housing programs, food stamps, and now a massive government health insurance program that will ensure we have to do nothing other than give up half of our income to the federal government, and our leaders will do the rest. Social Security and Medicare ensure that we do not even have to provide for our parents.
In effect, we are told to become modern day Scrooges.
In the same year that Dickens published A Christmas Carol, Herbert Spencer published an essay, "The Proper Sphere of Government." Spencer wrote that one of the most under-looked and most harmful effects of the Poor Laws of Britain - their welfare system - was that the wealthy would lose their sense of charity and feeling towards the less fortunate.
He put in an essay the very point that Scrooge was making in Dickens's novel. Spencer wrote that wealthier classes would feel the annoyance towards the forced contributions to the poor that is evident in Scrooge's response to the gentlemen that were asking him to help out the poor. One hundred and sixty-seven years on from Dickens and Spencer we must ask ourselves: Have we arrived at the point where we see those less fortunate than we as an annoyance, something to be taken care of by our government with the taxes taken out of our paychecks so we don't have to be bothered to even think about them?
When the federal government takes your tax dollars to pay for someone else's doctor's visit, you are not being charitable. You had no choice in the matter.
The federal bureaucrat who sent the doctor the check is not being charitable, for he or she is spending your money, not theirs.
The doctor is not being charitable, for he is being paid for their service.
On the other hand, St. Peter's Free Clinic in Hillsdale is an example of true charity. Volunteers provide the medical care and other services, local residents and churches provide donations to pay for the medicine and supplies, and those who receive the service recognize the love and respect that they are being given.
America remains the most charitable of all nations. Despite the recession, American charitable giving exceeded $300 billion in 2009. Probably every reader of this column has given to some charity this year. But this Christmas we should make an effort to examine how we can make the transition from a government that makes us into Scrooges to a government that gives us the opportunity to be truly philanthropic.
This article originally appeared in The Michigan View (themichiganview.com) on December 24, 2010.
rationalargumentator.com/issue271/scroogewelfare.html
I have no fear that the people here will become Scrooge. I think that more to the point is the illustration of how government programs meant to do something, helping the distressed in this case, usually fall short and it still remains up to the individual to contribute to “pick up the slack.” If you were not taxed as much for these (my interpretation of them) bloated temples of false piety, virtue signaling and bureaucratic debacles of wood-be charity that ultimately devolve into social entitlements, would you not spend more or give more to local charities or other charities then you currently do?
I'm sure that we (society as a whole) will need government implemented "safety nets" for when people fall on hard times. I am not advocating the abolishment of those at all.
And I'll stop here to give others a chance to comment.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
4 years 1 month ago #2813
by Serenity
If i just stick to the original question and look how things are organized where i live then i should say both ,but that is only because entitlement is very discouraged here, everything you get from the government is a gift , that can be taken away when the gonvernment wills it.
All government assistence programs are temporary and debatable , and yet none of them never seem to go away , we have wellfare , rent help , mortgage help , etc etc ,
The only support you are really entitled to is if you worked for a certain amount of years and become ill , or out of a Job , but that support you basicly payed into an insurance in advance.
We have a very high number of volunteers that work in countless charity orginasations , charity is very much a thing here that people cherish, You get a training as a volunteer when you can handle it yourself or you deligate it to the government support programs.
So to answer your question: Both governmentsupport can never replace charity , not practically and not emotionally
Replied by Serenity on topic Which is better?
Which is better, charity or government assistance programs...
If i just stick to the original question and look how things are organized where i live then i should say both ,but that is only because entitlement is very discouraged here, everything you get from the government is a gift , that can be taken away when the gonvernment wills it.
All government assistence programs are temporary and debatable , and yet none of them never seem to go away , we have wellfare , rent help , mortgage help , etc etc ,
The only support you are really entitled to is if you worked for a certain amount of years and become ill , or out of a Job , but that support you basicly payed into an insurance in advance.
We have a very high number of volunteers that work in countless charity orginasations , charity is very much a thing here that people cherish, You get a training as a volunteer when you can handle it yourself or you deligate it to the government support programs.
So to answer your question: Both governmentsupport can never replace charity , not practically and not emotionally
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- Wescli Wardest
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4 years 1 month ago #2815
by Wescli Wardest
Replied by Wescli Wardest on topic Which is better?
I agree, both are needed. Ultimately I wonder if government programs have become too large to be as effective as they could be.
If the private sector, individuals and community groups could be more effective? And if the government groups have become ineffective should we continue to expand them? Or, cut them back and let the individual take over?
No matter what, I believe we will always need some level of a public safety net. Even if we, the whole of society, were successful I thin the fear of freedom without the safety net would be too much for people.
If the private sector, individuals and community groups could be more effective? And if the government groups have become ineffective should we continue to expand them? Or, cut them back and let the individual take over?
No matter what, I believe we will always need some level of a public safety net. Even if we, the whole of society, were successful I thin the fear of freedom without the safety net would be too much for people.
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4 years 1 month ago - 4 years 1 month ago #2821
by Rosalyn J
Replied by Rosalyn J on topic Which is better?
As a Social Security Advocate (ie a person who helps people recieve government benefits) I am a bit ambivalent. I cannot and do not make the call as to whether the person applying in my office gets the benefits. That is left up to the analyst. But in terms of numbers, it works out like this:
In a year, if I assist 100 people in getting benefits
3 will get it at the first stage (initial)
11 at the second (appeal)
11 at the third (hearing)
For a total of 25
At the longest it takes 3 years and at the shortest, 3-6 months.
Many of the people I see in my office are refugees from Iraq or Afganistan and all of the people I see in my office have mental illness. I think it is safe to divide the numbers I just gave in half. It is, after all, difficult to see with the naked eye disabilities which are internal (chronic pain or depression for example).
On some level though, I am quite concerned about creating a spirit of learned helplessness. The percent of people who get off benefits is miniscule. Something like one percent. Which is why there are many incentives created by SSA. However, benefits are tied with health insuranace for many people and there is also the fear of being let go after one completely gets off benefits and into employment. One cannot be sure money will come in. Additionally, so many years of being told you cannot work by medical professionals and the SSA and its difficult to shift that mindset
In a year, if I assist 100 people in getting benefits
3 will get it at the first stage (initial)
11 at the second (appeal)
11 at the third (hearing)
For a total of 25
At the longest it takes 3 years and at the shortest, 3-6 months.
Many of the people I see in my office are refugees from Iraq or Afganistan and all of the people I see in my office have mental illness. I think it is safe to divide the numbers I just gave in half. It is, after all, difficult to see with the naked eye disabilities which are internal (chronic pain or depression for example).
On some level though, I am quite concerned about creating a spirit of learned helplessness. The percent of people who get off benefits is miniscule. Something like one percent. Which is why there are many incentives created by SSA. However, benefits are tied with health insuranace for many people and there is also the fear of being let go after one completely gets off benefits and into employment. One cannot be sure money will come in. Additionally, so many years of being told you cannot work by medical professionals and the SSA and its difficult to shift that mindset
Last edit: 4 years 1 month ago by Rosalyn J.
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4 years 1 month ago - 4 years 1 month ago #2822
by Acanthos
極代 ~ per ardua ad astra
Replied by Acanthos on topic Which is better?
Dole bludging is a rather common thing here in Australia. You get a fortnightly payment if your out of work, intended to cover you while you look for a new job.... so folk just play the system and avoid getting a job. Some people spend their whole lives never working, and then their kids grow up and repeat the pattern!!!
Of course there are disability and aged pensions, but they are different things for people considered genuinely unable to work.
There is also fortnightly payments for fulltime students to get by, and the government gives out loans for courses of study.
But all those things are means tested so to act as a welfare net rather then universal thingee.
Ideally the system would be tightended to avoid abuse of it, and if there was not enough jobs then ideas floated around have included 'work for the dole' with Councils etc doing themundane important stuff that Councils do 
I spent nearly a year on the dole back in the day, and it was more cash then I got as an apprentice!!!! It's said never to be enough, but I think there is an element of people living beyond their means at times. The best use of money afterall is not spending but successful investing
Of course there are disability and aged pensions, but they are different things for people considered genuinely unable to work.
There is also fortnightly payments for fulltime students to get by, and the government gives out loans for courses of study.
But all those things are means tested so to act as a welfare net rather then universal thingee.
Ideally the system would be tightended to avoid abuse of it, and if there was not enough jobs then ideas floated around have included 'work for the dole' with Councils etc doing the

I spent nearly a year on the dole back in the day, and it was more cash then I got as an apprentice!!!! It's said never to be enough, but I think there is an element of people living beyond their means at times. The best use of money afterall is not spending but successful investing

極代 ~ per ardua ad astra
Last edit: 4 years 1 month ago by Acanthos.
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4 years 1 month ago #2823
by Serenity
Replied by Serenity on topic Which is better?
In both replies i see the readiness to help others , and the frustration of people who take advantage of the system , there will always be people that dont want to work and get everything for free , its called entitlement that is why these allowences in the Netherlands are gifts and not something you can rely on indefinately. Most stop after 6 months
I guess its the same everywhere , you just dont want to be taken advantage off as hardworking tax payer...
I guess its the same everywhere , you just dont want to be taken advantage off as hardworking tax payer...
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