"Gurus"

Do leader have some kind of moral or any kind of obligation to be honest with those they lead?

Do you expect that your leaders should "lead by example" or is barking orders from the back good enough?

At what point, how do you know that the guy you've been following is completely full of shit? And what do you do about it?

Thoughts?

Answers?

Musings? LOL

These are just hypothetical questions I was pondering.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Do leader have some kind of moral or any kind of obligation to be honest with those they lead?

Yes, they absolutely do. The idea that leaders can hide behind their authority and keep secrets from those they lead is harmful. That authority is granted by those they lead, so they should make sure those that follow are well informed and aware of the facts. That is how a society holds their leaders accountable and also how leaders establish trust among those that follow.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Do you expect that your leaders should "lead by example" or is barking orders from the back good enough?

Leaders should always lead by example whether it is from the front or the back. A leader must be willing to get their hands dirty and do whatever it is they are asking of their followers. If a leader is to instill confidence, they must demonstrate that they are arm-in-arm with the troops when the crap hits the fan.

Wescli Wardest wrote: At what point, how do you know that the guy you've been following is completely full of shit? And what do you do about it?

It becomes apparent that a leader is full of shit when they start hiding the truth or purposely misleading their followers in order to remain in power. A defunct leader is one who lies, manipulates, and hides because the light of day would show them to be a farce. If a leader won't directly face followers and answer direct questions honestly, then they are no longer considering the best interest of the group.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Thoughts?

The leaders I admire most are the ones that put their lives on full display, warts and all. None of us are perfect, and a leader that can own his faults and admit mistakes will be the one that can be trusted. They are also more likely to address those faults and correct those mistakes instead of trying to hide and let them get worse.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Answers?

When considering the quality of leadership, always look for their motivation. Did they seek the position? Do they cling to it when they are no longer needed? Do they seek even more authority or power? Are they threatened by other strong leaders? These are all signs that they may be there for the wrong reasons and likely have selfish goals.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Musings? LOL

Great leaders are not manufactured. They are molded from those who have the raw virtues required. Education and experience strengthen these virtues until the leader is in a position to put their abilities to bear. When they have completed their task, a great leader knows to step aside and let the next great leader take over. It isn't about power. It is about serving your purpose.

Do leader have some kind of moral or any kind of obligation to be honest with those they lead?

Yes i call so called leaders something completely different when they base their power on entitlement and past glory instead of honesty and moral obligation. There is nothing as dissapointing when leadership is just a farce.

Do you expect that your leaders should "lead by example" or is barking orders from the back good enough?

Leaders should lead by example , and i would not recommend anyone barking anything at anyone , its not only a sign of weakness it also get very very boring. Some people are hilarious , like your president , but he is not really in control and just a puppet so i forgive him , he is not a leader anyhow.

At what point, how do you know that the guy you've been following is completely full of shit? And what do you do about it?

I have been in this situation a few times , sometimes i think i am too gullable but when i finally find out that someone is truly full of shit , i will be very confronting , ugly but necessary, dangerous aswell though. Very often these tirans have followers who benefit in his shadow and its hard to confront all of them, Ow and i dont dabble long , i move on.

Thoughts?

Yes , i think a leader is someone who does not really want to lead so much as to get stuff done , there are many ways and many good educations on leadership. I recommend anyone that desires leadership to think again , because a true leader makes the people he leads think they have a great say in what i happening. Not someone who shouts that he will never give up power and bullies others into believing him. That is why honesty is so important , to be a leader is to be honest with yourself most of all and then honest with others , things have a tendency to come to the surface , and you should be ready for critisism.

I'm a bit torn on this, on one hand a student should see no-one is perfect and use the guru as a temproary imperfect support to a greater purpose, but on the other hypocrisy from a guru is real counter-productive to that. So to me a good guru (view, not person ie 'seeing someone as, not thinking someone is') is vital to access the other frames of reference for deeper spiritual progress (see Three Roots ), BUT if there is a degree of confusion created in the student by hypocrisy etc, then if its for superficial stuff a student can look past it if they are aware of it.... still it will tend to be a negative influence IMO, one not unique in society and I'd suggest quite counter-productive for a spiritual teacher to embody. Sure there are lessons in everything, but making excuses for half arsing something for example as being 'still an important lesson' hehe just needs to be seen as, and accepted as, a less valuable lesson and a less effective teacher!!!

I feel that there is a distinct difference between a leader and a guru.

Gurus are interesting to talk with because they have developed a different way of looking at things or maybe hold some unique perspective. That perspective may in conjuction or opposition to your original belief system or set of ideas. But, gurus should not be followed.

Leaders, on the other hand should be in a position and mindset and ability where others want to follow them. And because so much trust and hope is placed in those we choose to follow they have the utmost responsibility and duty to earn that trust. And, they are directly responsible for where they lead others.

Leading by example is also how that trust is built.. And treating others with the dignity and respect they deserve is a part of that as well.

When a leader fails their people they should look to making amends so long as the bridges are not too badly burn or they should step aside and let another take their place. If they will not or do not them it is the obligation of the people to see that it happens.

Those are just a few of my thoughts on the topic

The distinction between guru and leader is an important one, Wes. Thanks for pointing that out. Gurus are generally seeking enlightenment for themselves and are willing to share what they have learned, but they are not always equipped to lead others to that place. Leaders, on the other hand, have an implicit duty to those that follow them. They are a servant with obligations to the people they lead. The level of responsibility is much greater.

It is hard for me to imagine someone teaching others something they don't truely understand.

But rather we misslead people intentionally or accedenaly we are still responceble for our own actions.

I would think that the particulars in any situation should be considered before judgement and/punishment be assiged. And that pleading ignorance is not an acceptable ecxuse.

Just a few thoughts I have on Brenna's question

That is a great question, Brenna. I've known people who were raised in particular religions that have never looked at their own faith from an outside objective viewpoint. All they know is what they have been told since being children, so now they try to "teach" others this wisdom without understanding that much of it is flawed.

I guess it is up to us as students to seek out teachers who have taken the time and care to understand both the material they teach and the impact that the material may have on their students.