East or West? Which is your Tendancy?

jzen wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote:


I have discovered that there is a lot of wisdom to be gathered from Eastern religions and philosophies. But I have a hard time reconciling their moralistic principles or ideals. I do identify with the moral system of the western societies. But only in accordance to what can actually be found in the Bible. Not the churches sad interpretation where they use people’s ignorance to manipulate their standing and loyalty.

What moralistic principles or ideals do you have trouble reconciling?

Eastern philosophies cover more than just Buddhism and Taoism.
Several groups value one sex over the other. Some find the individual path them most spiritually enlightened. But most of all I see the capability of “evil” in reincarnation.
Not evil because of the idea of having more than one life is just awful. But because it has had the effect, several times, of cheapening the life that we have now. When you’re going to come back time and time again to learn and become more enlightened, then what is the motivator in getting it right the first go around? Every time I have asked that I was told that no one can get it all right the first time around and that is why we have to learn with each life. To me, that sounds like an excuse.

I believe that there is a unique beauty and reverence in only having the one life, the now.
Multiple deities that can be bartered with to serve our desires. Not much of a God if there are things we can bribe them with. In Western Christianity, there is only one God that wants your devotion and love but there is no guaranty that you are going to get what you want. In complete opposite, Matthew 5:10-12 “10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” Several times we are told that for our beliefs and because of our “righteous” actions we will be persecuted and suffer.

Many Eastern religions teach that if we are enlightened and make nice with one another than the whole world will be fine and it is because of Karma or our past that hardship and injustice falls upon us.

Where in the Hermetic teachings we discover that the universe is governed by a set of principles that are not bendable. Balance is a teeter totter that goes constantly moves from one side of the spectrum to the other. In this we will face effects set by others actions, or actions in the universe itself, which had no intent of directly causing us harm but we have to deal with. Through our understanding and will of actin, we can shape the world towards a goal we desire. Even in the Bible, as other scripts and religious text state to similar effect, God helps those whom help themselves. Not once can I think of a reference, and someone will look to prove me wrong LOL, that the Bible wants us to set idol and just pray for a good result or the result we want. And that if we are good enough or have enough Karma that result will somehow magically manifest to us. It is however full of things like do this and good will come to you. Have faith, after mentioning something that needs to be done, and when it is your time to have this it will be made available. Look at the parable of the three talents.

I also believe that there is a right and a wrong. And it is not subjective.

This is not to suggest that I believe everything the Bible says. Like many other things, I believe there is wisdom to be taken from it. And living and growing up in the Bible Belt of Western religion, Christianity, I have read the Bible several times. It was part of my growing up education. So I know it pretty well. I also look at many of the things the church says and does and can easily spot multiple inconsistencies and contradictions between those actions and teachings and what is actually written in the Bible.
But that is just a short, probably over simplified answer. LOL

I appreciate your perspective Thank you for sharing.

I've spent some time thinking about the points you brought up Master Wes, and I wanted to share a little about how I see the things that you mentioned. Certainly not to be argumentative, but for discussion.

The first thing I thought I would discuss is reincarnation. I certainly can't speak for all the different Eastern philosophies, but in my experience with them, (particularly Buddhism) people don't want to reincarnate. People who practice those philosophies want to get it right and get it over with, lol. This is the concept of Moksha or Nirvana, final liberation from Samsara, the cycle of birth and death. The exception to this (one of the one's that I'm aware of) is people who take on the Bodhisattva Precepts and agree to hold off on Buddhahood so they can come back to help people get out of Samsara. An example of this would be the Dalai Lama. I think if one is really engaged in the practice of this way, the only reason they don't want to continue on is to be able to help others find the way. That seems noble to me, especially in a life dedicated to eliminating the suffering of others (which is what keeps us in cyclical existence, according to Buddhism).

Certainly, there is great beauty in living the one life that we have. After all most of us, (even those that believe in reincarnation), only remember one life anyway, the one we have now. With no other knowledge of past lives, at least in my experience it seems to me that for those who practice, spending that time trying to help them realize no suffering seems like a pretty noble way to spend it.

The next thing I wanted to address the notion of bartering with gods and goddesses for favors. I'm going to assume here that you are referring to Hinduism, but this may equally apply to Shinto as well. Within Hinduism at least, there's as many notions of gods and goddesses (and how one should honor them) as there are people, lol. It is such a complicated system that it incorporates people who are Atheist, Agnostic, Monist, Monotheist, Polytheist, etc...all depending on where you are on the road of understanding. The idea you mentioned is indeed present, but it's only part of the system. It would be like equating mainstream Christianity to one particular sect. It doesn't really paint a full picture.

In Hinduism, there is a god that is just like the God you mentioned... a God that wants devotion and love, regardless of whether or not he grants you favors. Krishna has been around for a long time and fits this mold (not in its entirety, but in a manner close enough for the conversation we're having here). To me, asking a deity for favors after acts of devotion doesn't seem misplaced or inappropriate, lol. We've been doing it in the West for quite a while

Now for Karma...that's a tricky one. I totally believe in Karma, at least as something that can be seen based on the impact of the action that created it. I see it as just a law of the universe that governs intelligent acts, and it is as impersonal as gravity. Karma is created based on our actions. Some is good, some is bad, and some is neutral, with everything in between. Imagine for an instance, you hit someone with a car, and you kill them (as an extreme example, lol). There is Karma generated in the act and it resonates out to everyone connected to the individual and to you. The person may have had children who will not have a parent, and there are consequences to that. Perhaps the individual was on their way to help a sick elderly parent, and now they can't. It is actions and consequences. When intent is applied to the action, it makes the karmic consequences worse.

Now admittedly, the idea of being "punished" for the actions of a past life to me isn't ideal either. If that is the case, I couldn't tell you the mechanism behind that, or if that is really true or not. Other people's Karma has an effect on me. It seems unfair, but if we look at it as an impersonal force, it is about as unfair as gravity pulling in a truck that is going over a cliff with someone inside. In other words, it doesn't really matter. This is just my opinion

The last point I wanted to address was enlightenment. Enlightenment isn't some flighty, feel good, new age thing. It doesn't magically make the ills of the world go away, it helps us to be okay with. Being okay isn't a call to inaction, on the contrary, blindly sitting on the mat, hoping everything will go away. It encourages us to engage, to help mitigate the suffering that we are actually able to help with. To be conceptual for those who are familiar with Buddhism, it is the unity that comes from the still point that compels us to be compassionate. It is finally overcoming suffering, and then wanting to help others over come their suffering to.

Now these are over simplifications, based on the brevity I had originally intended for this post, lol. But they are accurate interpretation of my limited perspective, hahahaha. Once again, I do appreciate your perspective and am glad that you shared it with us

I have no issue with anything that you have said. But just like in Christianity, it is the application which people observe and not the philosophy. And where one may be taught one way, does not mean that they in turn believe or practice that way. This is nothing to be said against the philosophies or religions of the East for sure. And in the religions of the West we see the same things. If we didn’t, or were completely happy with what was the status quo we probably wouldn’t have found our way here. Especially seeing how most of us came from Jediism.

The truth of the matter is that it would take a life time of life times to understand all of the religions of the world. To really get them and where they came from and why and how they affect societies that they influence and how that effect has in turn shaped that religion over its course. These are all very complicated subjects that I do not pretend to be the expert on.

From my studies and the people I have spoken with about these things over the course of twenty-five years or so, many of them have left a bad impression or a bad taste in my mouth. That said, like I mentioned before, there is wisdom to be found in all of them. And similarities.