Ideas of Manhood/Womanhood

I recently completed an assignment at the TotJO where I was exploring ideas about manhood. This tied into what I felt was a change in society's perception of manhood compared to the past. As I continued to read, I found many of my thoughts on the subject warranted, along with explanations as to why there was an apparent difference. Have any of you noticed this? Have any of you observed the major generational differences between roles or notions of manhood or womanhood in the past and roles at present? If so, how do you feel about them? Do you find yourself struggling to identify with the modern ideas of these roles, longing to reconnect with the past, or do you find yourself comfortable and embracive of modern roles? Perhaps you're somewhere in the middle... Share your thoughts

Hmmm, I think its the society level of a populations culture, and people actively associate with it (or reject it) to various extents - to fit in. I see it as the same thing almost as Buddhist 'refuge'', in that they represent sets of morals and behaviours which are taken as 'normals', in a geometric sense.

Let me explain, if a point is a persons 'now', then its tangent plane is the imagined/expected environment also in the 'now' which is beyond the range of sense perception. A 'normal' then is the projection of that tangent plane as a point. The perpendicularity is the change of time in the 'now'. The tangent plane is a model, and a simulation of change to it provides a resultant model of self which can serve to guide action moving forward in the absence of task specific application. People cannot be turned on with laser focus 24/7 so probably need some generalized model of behaviour to fall back on as a defacto standard....

So a stabilized mode of behaviour which is perceived as 'safe' in a societal sense, as fitting in, as being functional etc. How that relates to ones mental health then might depend on things like how easily/comfortably they can achieve this and how strict a society is to them.

I formed this view quite young, and so sort of always walked a middle way type of path. Gender poles being generally irrelevant but rather just a part of being in any particular society and so I appear generally to fit into the male stereotype most easily because my body was born male.... but these things don't define me. And I think principles and values are beyond those things... but while I'd like to think I wouldn't be bound by them, but I've not had reason to go beyond them.

One could look back through history and see them as left overs of caste type systems, where people had roles associated to wealth (ie most usually birth) and indeed within the Indian caste system we found Buddhism emerge to deliberately sit outside of those as its own stabilized 'norm', albeit in a detached and restricted role within society as a function of its purpose for spiritual evolution which was inherently personnel in that example and so easily accommodated by those societies.

It could be true that society needs types of norms to function, and 'fashion' might exist to serve as a type of dynamic norm, but I'd probably say what is ideal is what is most healthy for the individual as we all are different - and that would require a society which allowed individual expression. But not everyone has the time, money or motivation to be 'individual', so expression could even be seen as flamboyant, bourgeois and wasteful from certain points of view. If people focus on their own happiness and stop judging others it might make things easier, but the less happy a person is in their own life the more they might judge others in efforts to blame them/society for it.

These days, with individual rights and reduced levels of poverty through the formation of the developed world, we can see many more variations emerging as acceptable to the community... probably because those with power and wealth (although more numerous) are not threatened anymore as much as the extent and nature of rules and laws have continued to be refined in the way they have.

Being of a more liberal mindset, I certainly welcome the evolution of gender roles in our society, but I also understand the friction that comes with change. As we get older, we tend to be more conservative and set in our ways. We become nostalgic for the past and don't want our world views to be upset too much. Younger people, particularly those in college, tend to be very progressive as they discover new information and gain a wider view of society. These two groups can easily clash.

Along with the empowerment of women in the workplace and politics, what I find most interesting is the recent revelations about the behavior of some men in power. It has been a long established power dynamic in many arenas that it was acceptable for men to exert power over women for sex. This is clearly changing. Along with this comes the erosion of established definitions of masculinity. Men are no longer being judged solely on sexual prowess, but also the opposite. It is becoming a norm for men to display a more feminine side, and take on more maternal roles within the family. I'll be curious to see how far this trend swings before balancing again.

I do have to make one thing clear though. Most guys with man buns marching for women's rights are still doing it as a way to impress women and hopefully get them into bed. I'm not naive enough to believe that men suddenly no longer are influenced by testosterone.

Lykeios wrote: I'm curious. How do you (all of you) feel contemporary views on manhood and womanhood have changed? What changes have there been to the traditional gender roles that alarm some people?

The OP posits great change, but now I'm curious as to what changes have occurred precisely. I know what I think has changed in recent decades, but what do you think?

Also, I just so happened to be watching a great TED talk on a similar subject when I found this thread the second time. It focuses more on the depiction of manhood in movies, but I think it's an interesting way to think about how boys and girls learn about what a man is/should be.

It was just an observation on my part. What I came to learn is that it has a lot to do with the traditional roles of manhood and what is emphasized in relation to them. There are three big roles that for the most part seem cross cultural, regardless of time: Protection, Procreation, and Providing. My disconnect comes in identifying with the Protection or Procreative aspects (I'm a veteran with 8 kids, lol) which really aren't a major part of today's generation. Our society tends to emphasize the Providing aspect of manhood, but it doesn't mean the same thing as it did say 20 or 30 years ago. Certainly there are many factors that influence this, too many to name here, lol. The changes I perceive are merely cyclical, based on what the current whims of society are or they state of world affairs, and compared to what they were with past generations that I have come across, the changes initially gave me the feeling I was missing out on some aspect of manhood. Turns out that I'm not, lol, I'm just focused on something different

I've noticed that with the rise of women in the workplace and income equality actually becoming a possibility soon, more women are choosing professional careers that used to be dominated by men. This touches on the "provider" role that jzen mentioned. It used to be the man's job to provide for the family while the women nurtured the family. Now, we see more stay-at-home dads or two income families with the women also acting as provider and sharing the nurturing role with the man.

We're also seeing a lot more empowered women in the movies and repackaging of older myths. The recent success of Wonder Woman shows that there is a desire to see strong independent women in roles of power. Disney has moved this direction as well with strong female leads like Mulan, Pocahontas, Maleficent, and most recently Rey in the new Star Wars movies. They are moving away from the damsel in distress stereotype and showing independent women who don't need men to provide for them or protect them. The next generation of women is likely to see these images as behavioral cues and grow up to be more independent. Men will have to adjust to this paradigm shift or risk being labeled as stubborn cavemen who refuse to join the new society. More and more we'll see these type of men being condemned and called out for inappropriate behaviors, which I see as a good thing.

I have given this some thought over the last few weeks...

At first, I was caught up in the same line of thought as to static gender roles. Or more percisely, how one would differentiate between an alpha and a beta male. Which is not what is really being asked at all.

The importance of growing into manhood and what is obtained at that level is the same for growing into womanhood and the gender is no more than a signifier for the sex associated with what is identified with and not on a particular set of attributes that might be considered assigned to the associated sex. So if a male excelled or prefered a more traditional female role it doesn't matter at all for his ability to reach manhood. What matters is the level of maturity displayed in public and private. The ability to be self sufficient. And, the ability and action of being a positive role model for others. The same is true for both sexes.

So, no matter what "traditional role", or atributes of said role one may choose to pursue; those have no bearing on rather manhood or womanhood is obtained. But if that person is a good example for others of how a responsible adult should behave in a similar situation, then they could be said to have reached manhood or womanhood depending on their sex.